Everyday Conversations on Race for Everyday People

In this episode of Everyday Conversations on Race, Simma Lieberman sits down with Steve Phillips — national political leader, three-time author, Guardian and New York Times contributor, and founder of Democracy in Color. His latest book is 

• Are White Men Smarter Than Everybody Else? Playing Offense in the Fight for Racial Justice in America (his latest)

Key concepts discussed:

• SWAMP — Straight White American Male Preference: a framework to reframe the equality debate and expose overrepresentation of white men (29% of the population, yet dominant in every power structure)

• SWAMP Audits — a practical tool anyone can use to assess their organization, city, or institution

• Virtual Precinct Captains — building a personal list of 20 people, keeping them informed, and making sure they vote

• The demographic transformation of America: from 88% white in the 1960s to 41% people of color today

• Why mobilizing the existing diverse majority is more effective than chasing white swing voters

TIMESTAMPS

Time

Topic

0:00

Introduction & show overview

1:08

Guest intro: Steve Phillips — author, political leader, founder of Democracy in Color

2:43

Do we still need to talk about race? Steve says: now more than ever

3:41

The 2015 escalator speech and the politics of White racial anxiety

5:00

Post-George Floyd commitments abandoned — where we are now

6:10

Steve's background: growing up as a child of the civil rights movement in Cleveland

7:10

First Black family on Dartmoor Road; seeing MLK as a toddler

8:35

Simma's personal story: the March on Washington and her junior high school protest

9:08

What's happening with young people today — reasons for hope

10:07

Zohran Mamdani's NYC mayoral campaign as a generational movement

12:03

Young conservatives and Charlie Kirk: the danger of silence on the left

13:00

MLK's quote on the silence of good people

15:13

Simma's personal connection to Steve's books and finding hope

16:36

Brown Is the New White — Obama's election and demographic transformation

19:33

How We Win the Civil War — the Confederates never stopped fighting

21:38

Are White Men Smarter Than Everybody Else? — the book's origin and SWAMP framework

22:20

White men are only 29% of the population — yet dominate every power structure

25:15

The "meritocracy" myth exposed — preferences have always existed for white men

26:35

The Emily & Greg / Lakeisha & Jamal resume study (University of Chicago)

27:58

The Chosen — how elite college admissions were rigged for preferred whites in the 1920s

29:40

Hope and strategy: the majority already exists — why Democrats keep losing anyway

33:11

If all Texans had voted in 2020, Biden would have won Texas

34:42

2024: Democrats spent $1B on TV ads instead of community organizing

37:00

Voter apathy, Nick Cannon, and why people say "there's no point voting"

40:40

Zohran Mamdani's free childcare platform and delivering for voters

42:00

Local organizing wins: Kansas City Tenants Union gets 6,000 votes and passes a bill of rights

43:13

A crusade for democracy: the call for a million precinct captains

46:25

The demographic revolution: U.S. is now 41% people of color (was 12% in the mid-'60s)

48:16

Progressive white allies — a historic tradition and a crucial part of the coalition

50:37

"Fear of a Black Planet Syndrome" and what individuals can do right now

51:57

SWAMP audits — a tool anyone can use to go on offense

54:16

DEI vs. racial justice: Simma clarifies the distinction

55:07

Practical steps: virtual precinct captains and SWAMP audits

56:16

Book recommendation: Practical Radicals by Deepak Bhargava & Stephanie Luce

57:23

Show recommendation: Andor (Disney+) — fighting back against authoritarianism

58:31

Where to find Steve: democracyincolor.com

58:57

Closing thoughts: keep talking about race, build the multiracial democracy

 

In this powerful episode of Everyday Conversations on Race, host Simma the Inclusionist sits down with Emmy award-winning journalist and author Dion Lim to confront a question too many are avoiding: "Why has the conversation about anti-Asian hate gone silent"?

Dion takes us behind the headline-making DM that changed her career — an anonymous video of an elderly Asian man being brutally beaten in San Francisco — and reveals what it took to bring stories like his to light when her own newsroom resisted.

 From the murder of Vincent Chin to COVID-era scapegoating, she traces the deep historical roots of anti-Asian racism in America. She explains why the silence after the peak of BLM and Stop AAPI Hate is not just disappointing — it's dangerous.

Topics in This Episode:

• Why anti-Asian hate is "as old as the Gold Rush" — and why we're erasing that history
• The cultural shame that keeps Asian American victims from speaking out
• The death threats and hit pieces Dion faced for reporting the truth
• How DEI rollbacks are affecting communities right now
• What Black-Asian solidarity actually looks like on the ground
• The role food, music, and pop culture play in bridging racial divides
• Dion's new book Amplify: My Fight for Asian America (foreword by Olivia Munn)

You'll hear:

• The anonymous 12-second DM that changed everything — a video of an elderly Asian man being attacked while collecting cans in San Francisco's Bayview neighborhood
• Why Asian American victims often don't come forward: cultural conditioning, family shame, distrust of media, and generational silence

• Anti-Asian hate isn't new — from the Gold Rush to Vincent Chin to Yik Oi Huang and Vishal Ratanapakdee
• How COVID gave people permission to blame Asians — and how "kung flu" and "China virus" language fueled violenc
• The backlash Dion faced: a Washington Post hit piece orchestrated by a former DA's team, death threats from people who denied anti-Asian hate was real
• Why the Asian American community isn't monolithic — income inequality, cultural differences, and the "model minority" myth
• The connection between Black and Asian communities — shared history, manufactured division, and what solidarity actually looks like on the ground
• Grassroots response: patrol groups, the Blue Angels in Oakland, and the role of everyday people showing up for each other
• Simma's own history with the original Rainbow Coalition — The Young Patriots, the Black Panthers, the Young Lords, and Asian groups working together in the late '60s and '70s
• The immigrant parent dynamic: silence as survival, pride as a long time coming, and what it meant when Dion's father finally expressed pride after her 20/20 appearance
• What Dion wants for the next generation: be loud, find your community, take care of your mental health, and don't be afraid to take up space
• TV recommendation: Warrior — the series about the rise of the Tongs and how Chinese workers were treated in California
• The ask: get Amplify on the New York Times bestseller list — and why it matters beyond sales

Key Learnings:

• Silence is not safety. When institutions stop talking about race, hate doesn't disappear — it goes underground and grows. The rollback of DEI programs and race coverage in newsrooms makes communities more vulnerable, not more comfortable.
• Anti-Asian hate has deep American roots. This isn't a COVID story. It goes back to the Gold Rush, the Chinese Exclusion Act, and the murder of Vincent Chin. Understanding that history is the first step to not repeating it.
• Cultural conditioning keeps people quiet. Many Asian Americans are raised to not cause a fuss, not draw attention, not inconvenience others. That silence protects no one — it protects the people doing harm.
• Division between communities is often manufactured. The tension between Black and Asian communities didn't come from nowhere. It was seeded deliberately, and it dissolves quickly when people actually get to know each other.
• You don't have to share someone's experience to show up for them. The people who moved Dion most weren't Asian — they were people from every background who said "I didn't know, and now I do."

Timestamps:

• 1:08 – Who is Dion Lim and why she's fighting for Asian America
• 2:51 – "It feels like crickets" — DEI rollbacks and the dangerous silence
• 4:05 – The 12-second video that changed Dion's career forever
• 5:50 – Anti-Asian hate didn't start with COVID — it goes back to the Gold Rush
• 8:43 – From fluff pieces to death threats: how Dion's journalism transformed
• 10:15 – The shameful cultural silence keeping Asian victims from speaking out
• 13:58 – The Washington Post hit piece, orchestrated by a DA's team
• 16:15 – Why people deny anti-Asian hate even exists
• 21:25 – "It was okay to blame Asians for COVID" — how a pandemic became a weapon
• 24:14 – Dion's own mother told her to stop reporting. Here's why.
• 27:42 – Are newsrooms giving up on covering race?
• 31:00 – The "model minority" myth that erases Asian poverty
• 39:22 – What real Black-Asian solidarity actually looks like
• 46:01 – The history America buried: forced labor, exclusion laws & the show Warrior
• 51:01 – Dion's call to action + her book Amplify

Guest Bio:

Dion is a beloved Emmy Award-winning journalist, two-time author, and international keynote speaker. For over 20 years, she has transformed complex, high-stakes issues into clear, compelling stories that resonate with millions. A trusted expert in media presence, Dion now helps executives and changemakers communicate with the same clarity, confidence, and impact. Her work amplifying underrepresented voices has built bridges across diverse communities and sparked lasting change.

Connect with Dion Lim:

• Website: dionlim.com
• Instagram & Facebook: @dionlimtv
• LinkedIn: Dion Lim

Get the book: Amplify: My Fight for Asian America — available now!

If this episode moved you, share it with someone who needs to hear it. Subscribe, leave a review, and help us get these conversations heard across the globe.

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All donations are tax deductible through Fractured Atlas.

Simma Lieberman, The Inclusionist, helps leaders create inclusive cultures. She is a consultant, speaker, and facilitator. Simma is the creator and host of the podcast, Everyday Conversations on Race.

Contact Simma@SimmaLieberman.com to get more information, book her as a speaker for your next event, help you become a more inclusive leader, or facilitate dialogues across differences.

Go to www.simmalieberman.com and www.raceconvo.com for more information

Simma is a member of and inspired by the global organization IAC (Inclusion Allies Coalition) 

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Previous Episodes

Frank Carbajal on Latino Leadership: From Migrant Farmworker Son to Silicon Valley Voice Dr. Gina Paige on African Ancestry: How DNA Reconnects Black Americans to Their African Roots From Black Panther to Corporate America: Elmer Dixon on Race, Revolution, and Why DEI Is Not Dead Loved this episode?  Leave us a review and rating

Frank Carbajal grew up the son of Mexican migrant farmworkers in California's Imperial Valley, where summer temperatures hit 115 degrees and his mother worked the fields through her third trimester. Today he's the founder and president of Es Tiempo LLC, a co-author of three books on Latino leadership, founder of the Silicon Valley Latino Leadership Summit at Stanford University, and a former keynote speaker in Ken Blanchard's network.

In this conversation with Simma, Frank talks about what it actually means to be Latino in America today — and why that word doesn't fit everyone who could claim it. He breaks down the Bracero Program that brought his parents to the U.S., the "101 Infrastructure Divide" that shows how Latino hands built Silicon Valley while Latino representation in tech sits in the single digits, and why his mother told him being bilingual is a superpower.

This is a conversation about immigration, identity, family, and what it takes to move from picking fruit in the fields to standing in front of executive boardrooms — without ever forgetting where you came from.

What You'll Learn

• What the Bracero Program was, and how it shaped Mexican American families in California for generations
• Why "Latino" is not one identity — and how to talk to people about their background without making assumptions
• The real numbers behind Latino representation in education, the corporate boardroom, and venture capital
• How to start a conversation across race and culture without getting yourself into trouble
• Why being bilingual is a competitive advantage, not something to hide
• What "the 101 Infrastructure Divide" means and why it matters for anyone working in or with the tech industry
• How to spot the difference between performative diversity and actual connection

Key Takeaways

• Latinos are not a monolith. There are 20 Latin American countries, multiple generations of Latino Americans, and people who identify as Latino, Latina, Chicano, Mexican American, American, or simply as a leader — and all of those answers are valid.
• The hands that built Silicon Valley are not the hands sitting in its boardrooms. Latino representation in tech leadership and venture capital is still in the low single digits despite Latinos making up over 40% of California's population.
• Conversations across race work when you start with what's in front of you — food, art, family, a shared interest — not with politics or assumptions.
• Bilingualism is a superpower. So is resilience. Frank's parents had third- and fourth-grade educations and built a life for their children through nothing but hard work.
• Leadership, not identity politics, is the through-line that travels across borders, languages, and generations.

Timestamps

[00:00] — Simma's opening: why this podcast exists for anyone who wants to talk across race but is afraid of saying the wrong thing

[02:30] — Meet Frank Carbajal: Es Tiempo LLC, Silicon Valley Latino Leadership Summit, two published books, and the award he's most proud of (hint: it's not the corporate one)

[05:00] —  What legacy means in a Latino family

[07:00] — The elephant in the room: why race conversations are crucial conversations, and what "healthy conversation" actually looks like

[09:00] — The numbers don't lie: 65 million Latinos in the U.S., but only 1–2% of PhDs, 1.5% of CEOs and board members, and less than 2% of venture capital

[11:00] — What is the Latino community, really? Why "Latino" doesn't fit everyone — and why some people say "Just call me a leader"

[14:00] — The Bracero Program explained: Frank's parents, migrant farmworkers, and the pathway that shaped a generation of Mexican American families

[17:00] — Born on Juneteenth in 115-degree heat: Frank's mother worked the fields through her third trimester and almost died giving birth to him

[19:00] — The 101 Infrastructure Divide: how Latino hands built Silicon Valley's buildings by hand — including NVIDIA's $4.9 trillion headquarters — while Latino representation in tech stays in the single digits

[22:00] — When Simma brought a Spanish-speaking facilitator to a workshop, and her class hated him. Why language alone is not connection.

[25:00] — Frank's mother's wisdom on sangrón: how she could spot arrogance instantly, and why she'd rather work with a humble white person who spoke Spanish than an arrogant Latino with a sense of entitlement

[28:00] — Bilingual is a superpower: Frank's parents told him to never be embarrassed, and why he tells his own daughters the same thing

[30:00] — "Wow, you speak without an accent" — the microaggression Latino professionals know too well, and how Frank handles it

[32:00] — Afro-Latinos, Caribbean Latinos, Mexican Americans, Chicanos, Latinos of European descent: why the Latino community is not a monolith, and the language families use to describe all the shades within it

[35:00] — Frank's Brazilian soccer coach who was Afro-Latino, spoke three languages, and taught a 10-year-old Frank what unity actually looks like on a team

[37:00] — How to have a conversation across difference without stepping on a landmine: Frank's mentor's advice about reading the room — start with the Frida Kahlo painting on the wall, not politics

[40:00] — Simma and Frank agree: food and stories are how you build a bridge. Why curiosity beats tiptoeing every time.

Guest Bio

Frank Carbajal is the founder and president of Es Tiempo LLC, a leadership development and keynote speaking firm. He is the founder of the Silicon Valley Latino Leadership Summit, held at Stanford University, which brings top Latino thought leaders together from across the country.

He is co-author of Building the Latino Future: Success Stories for the Next Generation (with a foreword by management guru Ken Blanchard) and co-author of El Futuro Latino, published in 14 Latin American countries. He was part of Ken Blanchard's keynote speaker network and works with CEOs, executives, managers, and small business owners on leadership development.

Frank received the 2013 Father of the Year Award from Building Peaceful Families and the 2013 Portraits of Success Award from the Hispanic Development Corporation. He serves on the advocacy committee for the Silicon Valley Education Foundation. He is the son of Mexican immigrants, the husband of a Salvadoran American wife, and the father of three daughters.

Connect with Frank Carbajal

• Email: frank@estiempo.com
• LinkedIn: Search Frank Carbajal (C-A-R-B-A-J-A-L)
• Company: Es Tiempo LLC

Click here to DONATE and support our podcast

All donations are tax deductible through Fractured Atlas.

Simma Lieberman, The Inclusionist, helps leaders create inclusive cultures. She is a consultant, speaker, and facilitator. Simma is the creator and host of the podcast, Everyday Conversations on Race.

Contact Simma@SimmaLieberman.com to get more information, book her as a speaker for your next event, help you become a more inclusive leader, or facilitate dialogues across differences.

Go to www.simmalieberman.com and www.raceconvo.com for more information

Simma is a member of and inspired by the global organization IAC (Inclusion Allies Coalition) 

Connect with me:

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Previous Episodes

Dr. Gina Paige on African Ancestry: How DNA Reconnects Black Americans to Their African Roots From Black Panther to Corporate America: Elmer Dixon on Race, Revolution, and Why DEI Is Not Dead Why We Can't Stop Talking About Race: A Conversation with Carole Copeland Thomas Loved this episode?  Leave us a review and rating

For most Black Americans, the family tree stops at a wall built by slavery. Dr. Gina Paige co-founded African Ancestry to tear down that wall. In this episode, she explains how her company uses DNA to trace Black people back to specific African countries and ethnic groups — not vague regions, not percentages, but actual present-day nations and peoples.

Gina walks Simma through the science in plain language, explains why African Ancestry gets results other DNA companies can't, and talks about what happens inside people when they finally know where they come from. She also addresses the fears many Black Americans carry about genetic testing — Henrietta Lacks, Tuskegee, and who owns your DNA after you mail it in.

This conversation is about identity, agency, and reclaiming what slavery tried to erase.

Timestamps

02:15 — Meet Dr. Gina Paige The co-founder who started her first business at age 8 — before the internet.

04:30 — What African Ancestry actually does Tracing Black people back to specific African countries and ethnic groups before the transatlantic slave trade.

06:45 — From Colgate-Palmolive to Howard University How a corporate marketer partnered with a genetic researcher to build something that had never existed before.

09:20 — Why genealogy fails Black Americans Black people weren't counted as human beings in US records until the 1870 census. DNA is the only way back.

11:30 — The science, made simple "If your mother's yellow and your father's blue, what color are you?" How mitochondrial DNA holds the key.

14:15 — Why everyone gets "Nigeria" from other DNA tests African Ancestry has 33,000+ samples from 35 African countries. The closest competitor has 6,000 — half of them Nigerian.

17:00 — How African Ancestry is different Other companies look at the mixing. African Ancestry looks at the lines that never mixed.

19:40 — Charlamagne Tha God and Ebro's roots revealed Mende people in Sierra Leone. Masa people in Cameroon. Specific. Named. Real.

21:30 — What happens when people get their results "We don't come from people who were enslaved. We come from doctors, healers, astronomers, philosophers, kings and queens."

24:45 — Why erasing Black history is a losing game Gina on power, pride, and what oppressors don't want you to know.

27:20 — Your DNA, protected African Ancestry is the only company that cannot sell or share your genetic data. The lab is contractually required to destroy your DNA after testing.

29:50 — The 23andMe bankruptcy and what happens to your DNA Why insurance companies and pharmaceutical firms should never have access to your genetic information without your knowledge.

32:10 — Henrietta Lacks, Tuskegee, and the case for participating anyway Gina's honest answer to Black friends who refuse genetic testing out of fear.

36:00 — One test, one whole family Why Simma's sister taking the test means Simma already has her answer — and so do 25 of her cousins.

39:15 — Citizenship, name changes, and going home The 12 people who gained Sierra Leonean citizenship. The artists, authors, and families whose lives changed after one result.

42:30 — What to look for in any at-home DNA test Gina's three rules before you spit in a tube or swab your cheek.

Guest Bio

Dr. Gina Paige is co-founder and President of African Ancestry, Inc. In 2003, she pioneered a new way to trace African lineages through genetics. She has revealed the African roots of Oprah Winfrey, John Legend, Chadwick Boseman, Spike Lee, Condoleezza Rice, and the King family. A Washington, DC native and lifelong entrepreneur, Gina launched her first business at age eight and spent her early career running brands at Colgate-Palmolive and Sara Lee before building African Ancestry into the world's largest collection of indigenous African lineage samples.

 

Click here to DONATE and support our podcast

All donations are tax deductible through Fractured Atlas.

Simma Lieberman, The Inclusionist, helps leaders create inclusive cultures. She is a consultant, speaker, and facilitator. Simma is the creator and host of the podcast, Everyday Conversations on Race.

Contact Simma@SimmaLieberman.com to get more information, book her as a speaker for your next event, help you become a more inclusive leader, or facilitate dialogues across differences.

Go to www.simmalieberman.com and www.raceconvo.com for more information

Simma is a member of and inspired by the global organization IAC (Inclusion Allies Coalition) 

 

Connect with me:

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Previous Episodes

From Black Panther to Corporate America: Elmer Dixon on Race, Revolution, and Why DEI Is Not Dead Why We Can't Stop Talking About Race: A Conversation with Carole Copeland Thomas What Happens When a White Neighbor Writes a Black Woman's Story? Loved this episode?  Leave us a review and rating

Simma Lieberman and Elmer Dixon go back over 50 years — she was in the Young Patriots, he was co-founding the first Black Panther Party chapter outside California. In this conversation, they cut through the lies, revisionist history, and current attacks on DEI to talk about what the Black Panther Party actually stood for, why erasing Black history will never work, and what it takes to stay courageous when the political winds turn ugly.

Elmer shares what it was like to transition from revolutionary to corporate diversity consultant, corrects the record on the myths about the Panthers, and gives three direct pieces of advice for anyone trying to stay grounded right now.

What You'll Hear

•      Why Elmer and Simma were part of the original Rainbow Coalition — and who actually coined that phrase (hint: it wasn't Jesse Jackson)

•      The two biggest lies still being told about the Black Panther Party — and the truth behind them

•      What it felt like to leave the movement and step into "Babylon" with four kids to feed

•      A Black student who compared the Panthers to the KKK — and what that tells us about deliberate historical distortion

•      How the Netherlands teaches Black Panther history in school while the U.S. tries to erase it

•      The Seattle Black Panther Legacy Center opening this June in Pioneer Square

•      Why DEI is not affirmative action, and what "DEI hire" really reveals about the people saying it

•      Elmer's three things everyone needs right now: self-education, self-love, and courage

Timestamps [01:30] Introducing Elmer Dixon — 52 years of knowing each other, Black Panthers and Young Patriots

[03:00] Elmer's full bio — Seattle BPP, city cabinet, Executive Diversity Services, global work

[06:30] Is it still important to talk about race? Elmer answers directly

[08:00] From revolutionary to corporate America — the transition, the trauma, and the four kids

[11:00] The early days: co-founding the Seattle chapter, Bobby Hutton's funeral, J. Edgar Hoover's threat designation

[15:00] Bobby Seale for Mayor, political prisoner, shifting eras inside the party

[18:00] Simma's question: What do you say to people spreading lies about the Black Panther Party?

[20:00] Correcting the record — Japanese BPP member Mike Tagawa, mixed-race members, Huey Newton's own words on racism

[23:00] The Rainbow Coalition — who really coined the phrase, and which organizations were part of it

[25:00] The two lies: "They were racist" and "They were violent" — and what the party actually stood for

[29:00] The art school student who compared the Panthers to the KKK — and how deliberate distortion works

[32:00] Speaking in France, and why Dutch schoolchildren learn the real Black Panther history

[36:00] The attempt to erase Black history — why it won't work, and who's holding the torch

[39:00] The Seattle Black Panther Legacy Center — Pioneer Square demo site opening June 2025, permanent site search

[43:00] Young people picking up the torch — the Black Panther Park mural, the historic family home as landmark

[46:00] DEI is not affirmative action — what "DEI hire" really means, and why companies are wrong to be scared

[50:00] Paper tigers — how the Panthers faced Nixon and Hoover, and what that means for today

[53:00] Elmer's three pieces of advice: self-educate, love yourself first, be courageous

Guest Links

•       Elmer Dixon website: elmerdixon.com

•       Book: Die Standing: From Black Panther Revolutionary to Global Diversity Consultant (Two Sisters Writing and Publishing, 2023)

•       Elmer's TEDx Talk: Stories from the Revolution's Front Lines

 

Connect with Simma

•       Website & episodes: raceconvo.com

•       Email: simma@simmalieberman.com

•       Donate to support the show: raceconvo.com

 

Guest Bio

Elmer Dixon has spent his life fighting for justice, equality, and belonging—values rooted in who he is and the experiences that shaped him. At 17, inspired by the Black Liberation Movement of the 1960s, he co-founded the Seattle Chapter of the Black Panther Party with his older brother, Aaron. It was the first chapter outside of California, and together they built a movement that provided essential services to Black and Brown communities in their city.

 

Connect with Simma Lieberman

Need a speaker, facilitator, or dialogue leader who helps people talk with each other—not past each other?

Contact Simma:
simma@simmalieberman.com

Learn more and support the show:
RaceConvo.com 

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Loved this episode?  Leave us a review and rating

 

Previous Episodes

Why We Can't Stop Talking About Race: A Conversation with Carole Copeland Thomas What Happens When a White Neighbor Writes a Black Woman's Story? Do We Still Need to Talk About Race?

Carole Copeland Thomas has been black all her life — and she's spent decades making sure that means something in every room she walks into. Born in a Black hospital in Detroit during segregation, raised in a middle-class family where college was expected and Black excellence was the air she breathed. 

Carole became a Certified Speaking Professional (CSP) who helps organizations turn complex challenges into real action.

In this conversation, Carole and Simma go deep — on race, history, identity, the current political moment, and what all of us need to do right now.

They talk about why race is still the conversation we can't skip, what the BAFTA incident with John Davidson tells us about how racist language gets embedded in the brain, and why erasing HBCUs, Black Greek organizations, and Black history doesn't just harm Black people — it harms everyone.

They also get into the overlooked history of Black-Jewish solidarity in the civil rights movement, the economic consequences of Project 2025, and what resistance actually looks like in 2026 — from Delta Sigma Theta's Capitol Hill days to the Costco parking lot.

This is a conversation for people who want to understand where we are, how we got here, and what to do next.

3 Key Takeaways From This Episode

1- Know your history — all of it. You can't understand where we are without knowing how race was legally constructed in this country, why HBCUs and Black Greek organizations exist, and why the Black-Jewish alliance in the civil rights movement matters. Ignorance isn't neutral — it leaves you open to misinformation.

2- A reason is not an excuse. Whether it's the BAFTA incident, racially charged policies, or everyday bias — understanding why something happened doesn't make it okay. Hold both truths: context matters, and so does impact.

3- Resistance is not optional — and it's not one thing. Vote in the 2026 primaries. Show up for your neighbors across difference. Support organizations like the ACLU and NAACP. Use your voice at work, in your community, and at the polls. What Simma and Carole do every day — having these conversations — is also resistance.

 

TIMESTAMPS

0:00 — Introduction & welcome
2:15 — Introducing Carole Copeland Thomas: CSP speaker, leadership expert, Boston-based
5:00 — Carole congratulates Simma for keeping the podcast name
9:00 — DEI under attack: Time Magazine, equity vs. equality, and why the concepts aren't going anywhere
13:30 — "We're OGs in this field" — what diversity originally meant before it became a buzzword
15:30 — Why are we still talking about race? Race as a social construct rooted in the 1700s
18:00 — The Constitution, Article 1, Section 2: when race became law
20:00 — The BAFTA incident: John Davidson, Tourette's, the N-word, and Michael Jordan on stage 
25:00 — How does a word get imprinted in the brain? Why that question matters 
28:30 — Carole's personal story: growing up Black and middle class in Detroit
32:00 — Born in a Black hospital — segregation in Michigan in the 1950s
35:00 — Black excellence, Black businesses, and a community that thrived inside restrictions
38:00 — HBCUs: Carole went to Emory (a PWI); why Black colleges matter and always will
42:00 — Black Greek organizations — Delta Sigma Theta, the Divine Nine, and lifelong public service 
46:00 — Black history IS American history — you can't erase one without erasing the other 
49:00 — The Black-Jewish relationship: deep history, civil rights, shared struggle
53:00 — Julius Rosenwald, Rabbi Heschel, and the Jewish funding of the civil rights movement
57:00 — Stephen Miller and the contradiction of Jewish white nationalism 
1:01:00 — The N-word: its history, its use within the Black community, and why context doesn't make it okay for outsiders 
1:05:00 — Nazi Germany, Project 2025, DOGE, and the parallels people need to wake up to 
1:10:00 — Erasing immigrants, cutting Black scholarships, defunding trades: who's going to do the work?
1:14:00 — What we must do: vote in the 2026 primaries, resist, and educate
1:17:00 — Costco stands firm on inclusion — and the people showed up 
1:20:00 — White allies who gave their lives: Viola Liuzzo, Goodman and Schwerner, John Brown 
1:23:00 — Carole's closing message: neighbors across difference, the world she wants to live in 
1:26:00 — How to reach Carole; Simma's closing and call to action

 

About the Guests

Carole Copeland Thomas has been impacting the world in a significant way for over thirty-six years. Captivating audiences around the world since starting her business in 1987, Carole creates community as an internationally-recognized keynote speaker, thought leader, and cultural collaborator. She has spoken in nearly every state in the US and nine other countries, including England, Canada, Kenya, India, Guyana, Japan, El Salvador, South Africa, and Australia.

Carole presented her signature message on "Facing Fear" at the TEDx Waltham event in Waltham, Massachusetts. The speech is available to view on the TEDx Channel on YouTube.
In addition to her other business client activities, Carole served for 18 months as the Interim Vice President and Chief Diversity Officer at Curry College in Milton, Massachusetts.

 

RESOURCES MENTIONED

●       USUK Race Summit — Michael Curry's keynote available at usukrace.com

●       Carole Copeland Thomas — carolcopelandthomas.com

●       ACLU — aclu.org

●       NAACP — naacp.org

●       Delta Sigma Theta Sorority — Delta Days at the Nation's Capitol (annual legislative advocacy event)

●       The US Constitution — Read and memorize the First Amendment

●       BAFTA 2025 incident — John Davidson, Tourette's syndrome, and the N-word on stage

●       Project 2025 — referenced throughout as the policy blueprint behind current administration actions

●       Julius Rosenwald — co-founder of Sears, funded education for Black students across the South

●       Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel — Jewish civil rights leader who marched alongside Dr. King

●       Viola Liuzzo — white Detroit mother killed during the Selma-to-Montgomery marches, 1965

●       Andrew Goodman & Michael Schwerner — civil rights workers murdered in Mississippi, 1964

●       James Baldwin — writer and intellectual; his work on Black-Jewish history referenced

Connect with Simma Lieberman

Need a speaker, facilitator, or dialogue leader who helps people talk with each other—not past each other?

Contact Simma:
simma@simmalieberman.com

Learn more and support the show:
RaceConvo.com 

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Share the Conversation

If this episode made you think, please share it with a friend or colleague.

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Loved this episode?  Leave us a review and rating

 

Previous Episodes

What Happens When a White Neighbor Writes a Black Woman's Story? Do We Still Need to Talk About Race? Can Women of Color and White Women Be Friends?

What happens when two neighbors—one Black, one white—move beyond small talk and start sharing their real stories?

In this episode, Simma talks with Sandra Eggleston and Bill Byrne, whose unlikely friendship led to the book MLK to Brother Ray: A Woman's Adventure of Social Transformation, Political Revolution, and Personal Affirmation.

Sandra spent four decades as a United Airlines flight attendant during a time when the U.S. was being reshaped by the Civil Rights Movement and the Women's Movement. Along the way she met cultural icons, witnessed historic events, and navigated racism and sexism in ways many younger Americans have never heard about firsthand.

Bill, her white neighbor in Virginia, started hearing Sandra's stories around neighborhood gatherings. The more he listened, the more he realized these weren't just personal memories—they were living history. What began as curiosity turned into a book and a friendship that changed how he sees the world.

Their conversation with Simma explores how stories build understanding, why personal relationships matter in conversations about race, and how history still shapes our lives today.

PS- I did not want this conversation to end, and neither will you. 

 

Key Moments

00:00 – Simma introduces the show and the guests
03:00 – How Sandra and Bill became neighbors and friends
05:30 – Why Bill decided to write a book about Sandra
09:00 – Sandra's connection to Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
13:30 – Growing up during segregation and the Civil Rights era
17:30 – Sandra's early experience as a Black flight attendant in the South
24:00 – How writing the book changed Bill's understanding of race and history
29:30 – Why personal stories matter more than statistics
34:30 – What meaningful cross-race friendships can teach us
40:30 – Books, music, and stories that help people understand each other
47:00 – Final reflections on relationships, history, and change

About the Guests

Biography of book's subject: Sandra Eggleston
MLK to Brother Ray, A woman's adventure of social transformation, political revolution
and personal affirmation, tells the story of Sandra Eggleston. "Sandee" came of age
during a time of revolution. Regardless of the challenge, she found her way forward,
often guiding those close to her along the way. Daughter. Sister. Friend. Godmother.
Colleague. A platoon sergeant on the front lines of both the civil rights and women's
liberation movements.

Her journey took her to international jazz festivals, Caribbean beaches, and across the
country in an MGB convertible. Sandee met political power brokers, sports superstars
and music legends. She survived plane crashes, murder trials, and cancer, experiencing
the full spectrum of life's joys and sorrows, from weddings and Christenings to divorce.
Sandee's life experiences combined with the author's research into their historical
context challenge the reader to move beyond a superficial debate of today's
controversies.  Stories from her home and workplace bring an intimate and compelling
perspective to the social and political upheaval of the 1960s and 70s. The struggles and
the victories. The heartbreaks, and the healing power of family, friendship, and faith.

About the Author: Bill Byrne
MLK to Brother Ray is the author's third and most recent writing project.  Previous
books include the science fiction thriller Total Immersion and the memoir, How Long 
Does It Take to Catch a Fish?  Four lifelong friends find themselves trapped in a high-tech, virtual reality adventure of life and death in Total Immersion.  How Long Does It
Take to Catch a Fish is a collection of stories about fathers and sons and sons and
fathers.  It explores how dads and their male offspring can be understood as two sides
of the same coin, - unique yet intertwined, shaping one another across generations. 
The author is a career switcher from technology marketing to education.  He resides
with his wife (also a teacher!) in Northern Virginia.  They travel often to visit their
children's growing families in Brooklyn and Florida.  When not writing, he enjoys running
and playing the fiddle.

More information can be found at MLKtoBrotherRay.com

Book Mentioned

MLK to Brother Ray: A Woman's Adventure of Social Transformation, Political Revolution, and Personal Affirmation
by Bill Byrne

Available on Amazon

More information:
MLKtoBrotherRay.com

Why This Conversation Matters

Many people today know the Civil Rights Movement only through textbooks and headlines. Sandra lived it. Bill discovered it through listening.

Their friendship shows what can happen when people take the time to hear each other's stories—something Simma has been encouraging through her work and this podcast for years.

Connect with Simma Lieberman

Need a speaker, facilitator, or dialogue leader who helps people talk with each other—not past each other?

Contact Simma:
simma@simmalieberman.com

Learn more and support the show:
RaceConvo.com 

Instagram
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Tiktok
Website

Share the Conversation

If this episode made you think, please share it with a friend or colleague.

Real conversations across differences start when someone decides to listen.

Please help these necessary conversations continue- Make a one-time, or monthly tax-deductible donation of $5.00  https://fundraising.fracturedatlas.org/everyday-conversations-on-race-for-everyday-people

All donations are tax deductible through Fractured Atlas.

Loved this episode?  Leave us a review and rating

 

Previous Episodes

Do We Still Need to Talk About Race? Can Women of Color and White Women Be Friends? What Was DEI Actually Meant to Do—and Why Did It Go Off Track?  

In this episode of Everyday Conversations on Race, host Simma Lieberman welcomes Verna Williams, CEO of Equal Justice Works, former law professor, and former dean, for a powerful conversation about race, justice, and access to legal representation in America.

Verna explains why race remains a necessary topic—not to assign personal blame, but to understand how systems shaped by slavery and segregation continue to influence opportunity and social hierarchy today.

She reflects on growing up in the Washington, DC and Maryland area, attending both predominantly white and predominantly Black schools. Those experiences sharpened her awareness of being "different" and highlighted how segregated many of our lives still are. Even today, she encounters moments when someone tells her she is the first Black person they've had a meaningful conversation with—evidence of how separation persists.

As CEO of Equal Justice Works—the nation's largest postgraduate public-interest legal fellowship program—Verna works to address a staggering reality: 92% of low-income people's civil legal needs go unmet. She explains how civil legal problems such as eviction, wage garnishment, loss of benefits, and family instability create economic insecurity and can even lead to involvement in the criminal legal system. Unlike criminal cases, there is no guaranteed right to counsel in high-stakes civil matters, leaving millions to navigate life-altering situations alone.

Verna describes how Equal Justice Works partners with law firms, corporations, and foundations to fund fellowships that send lawyers into underserved communities. She highlights the organization's Disaster Resilience Program, created after Hurricane Katrina, which helps communities navigate FEMA claims, insurance issues, document replacement, and preparedness planning.

She also shares her personal journey—from broadcast journalism to law—motivated by fairness and shaped by the civil rights and women's rights movements. Her career has included work on voting rights, women's rights, veterans' benefits, and debt collection reform. She also argued—and won—a 5–4 U.S. Supreme Court case establishing that schools must address known student-on-student sexual harassment under Title IX.

The conversation explores immigration representation, reports of ICE detentions at court hearings, and practical ways non-lawyers can help—through translation, court accompaniment, and local volunteer efforts. Verna encourages listeners to stay informed through reputable sources, vote, and engage locally in school boards and city councils.

She also shares personal reflections on music and film—and clarifies her role as Michelle Obama's oral historian during the early White House years, after the two were law school classmates.

This episode connects race, law, and economic justice—and offers clear examples of how everyday engagement can strengthen democracy.

Time Stamps
00:00 Welcome to Race Convo: Why These Conversations Matter
00:58 Meet Verna Williams + The Big Question: Do We Still Need to Talk About Race?
02:16 Race as a Social Hierarchy: How History Still Shapes Today
03:54 Growing Up Integrated: Verna's Schools, Identity, and Feeling 'Different'
05:15 Segregation in Real Life: 'First Black Person I've Talked To' + Why the Podcast Exists
08:04 What Equal Justice Works Does: Closing the Civil Legal Help Gap
09:52 Why Verna Chose Justice Work: Early Racism, Fairness, and Civil Rights Roots
12:29 Civil vs. Criminal: The Hidden Crisis of No Right to Counsel
17:50 How Equal Justice Works Operates: Fellowships, Funding, and Disaster Resilience
21:00 Verna's Career Path + Arguing a Landmark Title IX Case at the Supreme Court
25:42 Keeping Progress Moving Forward: Training the Next Generation of Public Interest Leaders
26:30 Making Public Interest Careers Possible: Loan Forgiveness & Funding Support
27:31 Why This Work Matters: Building Leaders Through Equal Justice Works
28:46 Training for Empathy: Community-Led Lawyering & Fellow Learning Networks
30:16 Immigrant Justice on the Front Lines: Asylum, ICE at Court & Finding Hope
32:28 How Non-Lawyers Can Help: Volunteering, Translating & Getting Involved
34:11 Where to Plug In: EJW, Legal Services Corp & Other Advocacy Orgs
37:11 Staying Hopeful: History, Collective Action & Cross-Political Coalitions
43:51 Michelle Obama Connection: Serving as Her Oral Historian
45:26 Rapid-Fire Fun: Playlists, Oscar Movies & What to Watch Next
47:43 Final Call to Action: Get Informed, Vote Local & Show Up

Guest Bio

Verna L. Williams (she/her) is the CEO of Equal Justice Works. In her role as CEO, Verna has continued to advance the mission of Equal Justice Works to create opportunities for leaders to transform their passion for equal justice into a lifelong commitment to public service.

Verna brings with her an extensive background of experience teaching and practicing law, as well as researching civil and women's rights. Verna previously served as the dean of the University of Cincinnati College of Law, where she was a professor prior to becoming dean, and taught courses on family law, gender discrimination, and constitutional law. Additionally, she founded and co-directed the Judge Nathaniel Jones Center for Race, Gender, and Social Justice at the University of Cincinnati.

 

Click here to DONATE and support our podcast

All donations are tax deductible through Fractured Atlas.

Simma Lieberman, The Inclusionist, helps leaders create inclusive cultures. She is a consultant, speaker, and facilitator. Simma is the creator and host of the podcast, Everyday Conversations on Race.

Contact Simma@SimmaLieberman.com to get more information, book her as a speaker for your next event, help you become a more inclusive leader, or facilitate dialogues across differences.

Go to www.simmalieberman.com and www.raceconvo.com for more information

Simma is a member of and inspired by the global organization IAC (Inclusion Allies Coalition) 

 

Connect with me:

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Previous Episodes

Can Women of Color and White Women Be Friends? What Was DEI Actually Meant to Do—and Why Did It Go Off Track? Curiosity, Not Cancellation: Real Talk with Dr. Julie Pham Loved this episode?  Leave us a review and rating

From Fear to Friendship: The 30-Year Journey of an Interracial Women's Circle

What does it really take for women across race, identity, and experience to move from awkward conversations to real friendship?

In this episode, I talk with two people I deeply respect—Julie O'Mara and Dr. Sid Reel—about a women's circle I'm part of  that's been meeting for nearly 30 years. What started as a conference breakout session turned into something far more rare: a space where white women and women of color stayed in relationship through grief, anger, mistakes, growth, and joy.

We talk about confidentiality and why it matters. About staying at the table when things get uncomfortable. About what happens when people don't feel alone anymore. And about the difference between talking about race and actually knowing people whose lives are shaped by it.

This isn't theory. It's lived experience. And it's a reminder that real connection doesn't come from slogans or training slides—it comes from time, trust, and being willing to keep showing up.

We share raw, transformative experiences that took us from initial fear and distrust to deep, meaningful friendships. The episode explores the group's origins, the critical role of confidentiality, and the hard truths they've confronted about race, privilege, and solidarity. You'll learn the challenges and rewards of having tough conversations about race and how these led to profound support and solidarity during life's toughest moments.

 
Timestamps & Key Segments:

00:00 Introduction and Podcast Overview

01:10 Meet the Guests: Julie O'Mara and Dr. Sid Real

04:45 The Women's Circle: Origins and Purpose

12:38 Confidentiality and Trust Building

20:02 Personal Stories and Experiences

27:54 Challenges and Learnings in DEI

35:50 Standing Up and Women's Circle Support

36:57 Building Comfort and Social Connections

38:26 Shared Experiences and Mutual Support

41:33 Assumptions and Learning Moments

54:00 Starting and Sustaining a Circle

01:01:12 Final Thoughts and Contact Information

Guest Bio:
Julie O'Mara is coauthor of the free Global Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion Benchmarks (GDEIB):
Standards for Organizations Around the world along with Alan Richter, PhD, and Nene Molefi. It is available in English, French and Spanish and it and several free User Tools and other resources may be downloaded for free at www.GlobalDEIBenchmarks.org

Dr. Sidalia (Sid) Reel recently retired as Director of Staff Diversity Initiatives in Berkeley's Equity & Inclusion Division. Charged with implementing programs and policies to foster an inclusive and welcoming work environment, she co-founded the Next Opportunity at Work Conference; managed the campus-wide Multicultural Education Program; and consulted with departments and teams on equity and inclusion topics. She is a recipient of both an individual and a team Chancellor's Outstanding Staff Award for these efforts. Prior to UC Berkeley, she spent over 20 years leading corporate global diversity and inclusion organizations. A Berkeley native, she earned an EdD at USC, an EdM at Harvard, and a BA in Sociology at Scripps.

 

Click here to DONATE and support our podcast

All donations are tax deductible through Fractured Atlas.

Simma Lieberman, The Inclusionist, helps leaders create inclusive cultures. She is a consultant, speaker, and facilitator. Simma is the creator and host of the podcast, Everyday Conversations on Race.

Contact Simma@SimmaLieberman.com to get more information, book her as a speaker for your next event, help you become a more inclusive leader, or facilitate dialogues across differences.

Go to www.simmalieberman.com and www.raceconvo.com for more information

Simma is a member of and inspired by the global organization IAC (Inclusion Allies Coalition) 

 

Connect with me:

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YouTube
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Previous Episodes

What Was DEI Actually Meant to Do—and Why Did It Go Off Track? Curiosity, Not Cancellation: Real Talk with Dr. Julie Pham Voices of Triumph: Stories of African Women Immigrants in America Loved this episode?  Leave us a review and rating

A Conversation with Joe Santana; a DEI original

Would you agree that most conversations about DEI today sound loud, polarized, and disconnected from the work itself?

In this episode of Everyday Conversations on Race, I talk with Joe Santana—advisor, author, and long-time DEI consultant—about where Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion actually came from and how it was originally practiced inside organizations.

What really is DEI, (Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion)?

Joe and I have both spent decades doing this work. We've watched DEI evolve, get renamed, repackaged, misunderstood, and in some cases quietly dismantled. What often gets lost is that DEI didn't start as a political position. It started as a business conversation—about how organizations function, how people are evaluated, and how talent is either used or ignored.

What is the business case for DEI?  Why are people still talking about diversity, equity, and inclusion?

The early thinking behind DEI and why it mattered to organizational performance
How good intentions gave way to vague language and inconsistent practice
What happens when leaders avoid difference instead of learning how to work with it
Why "treating everyone the same" sounds fair but rarely works
How Employee and Business Resource Groups can either matter—or miss the point entirely

This is a grounded conversation between two practitioners reflecting on what we've learned, what we got wrong, and what still holds value—especially for leaders trying to make sense of the current moment.

You'll learn more about the challenges, and strategic importance of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI) in organizations. From the historical context provided by pioneers like Roosevelt Thomas to practical advice on optimizing business outcomes, Joe shares a wealth of knowledge on how DEI can drive both social good and financial success in companies. The episode also covers the vital role of Employee Resource Groups (ERGs) and what organizations can do to leverage them effectively. You'll gain valuable insights on turning DEI initiatives into strategic business tools.

If you're looking for clarity instead of slogans, and experience instead of soundbites, you'll find it in this episode.

 

Guest Bio

Joseph (Joe) Santana is a business strategy coach and futurist specializing in developing CDOs, ERG/BRG leaders, and Executive Sponsors who drive measurable business impact. He is an author, keynote speaker, and member of the Forbes Business Council and the Fast Company Executive Board and a frequent contributor to articles in both organizations' magazines. His insights and ideas have been shared globally in interviews with media outlets such as ABC, PIX, Fox, Ticker News, and The Black List, a streaming business interview show. His two most recent books, "The New DEI and ERG Frontier" and "SuperCharge Your ERGs," are available on Amazon, offering invaluable guidance to those ready to embark on the journey toward 21st-century business-impacting success. As CEO of Joseph Santana, LLC, an Inc Verified company, he leads multiple brands focused on equipping CDOs and ERG/BRG Chairs in national and global enterprises with the skills and strategies needed to enhance organizational performance. Below is a graphic depiction of the brands owned by Joseph Santana, LLC.

 

Click here to DONATE and support our podcast

All donations are tax deductible through Fractured Atlas.

Simma Lieberman, The Inclusionist, helps leaders create inclusive cultures. She is a consultant, speaker, and facilitator. Simma is the creator and host of the podcast, Everyday Conversations on Race.

Contact Simma@SimmaLieberman.com to get more information, book her as a speaker for your next event, help you become a more inclusive leader, or facilitate dialogues across differences.

Go to www.simmalieberman.com and www.raceconvo.com for more information

Simma is a member of and inspired by the global organization IAC (Inclusion Allies Coalition) 

 

Connect with me:

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Previous Episodes

Curiosity, Not Cancellation: Real Talk with Dr. Julie Pham Voices of Triumph: Stories of African Women Immigrants in America Black Health Matters: Community, Data, and the Journey to Wellness with Kwame Terra Loved this episode?  Leave us a review and rating

What happens when curiosity replaces fear? In this powerful and honest conversation, Simma Lieberman and Dr. Julie Pham, author of "7 Forms of Respect: A Guide to Transforming Your Communication and Relationships at Work", explore how curiosity helps us talk about race, identity, and respect without shame or defensiveness. They remind us that inclusion begins with wonder—and that respect isn't fixed, it's alive.

Simma and Dr. Julie Pham dive into the idea of curiosity as a practice—a mindset we can bring to every interaction. They discuss how we each hold multiple identities, why respect feels different to everyone, and how the "rubber band rule" teaches self-awareness and boundaries. Together, they model how curiosity—not cancellation—creates space for growth, empathy, and laughter.

Dr. Pham shares her journey from running her family's Vietnamese newspaper in Seattle to becoming an expert on curiosity-based inclusion. Simma reflects on her experiences as a Bronx-raised Jewish woman building bridges across race and culture. Their exchange reminds listeners that real connection begins when we listen to understand, not to judge.

 

[00:10:00 — The Practice of Curiosity]
Julie describes curiosity as a practice, not a trait, requiring awareness and humility. They discuss how fear of being wrong blocks learning and how curiosity turns awkward moments into opportunities for respect.

[00:15:00 — Respect as Relationship, Not Rule]
They unpack how "respect" looks different across people and cultures. Julie introduces her framework from Seven Forms of Respect and shares how she helps organizations talk openly about what respect means to them.

[00:20:00 — Cultural Assumptions and Adaptation]
Simma and Julie discuss regional and cultural communication styles—New York directness vs. West Coast politeness—and how adapting behavior is a form of respect, not inauthenticity.

[00:25:00 — Curiosity vs. Cancel Culture]
Simma raises the issue of "you should know" attitudes in DEI work. Julie explains why she rejects cancel culture and instead promotes dialogue and forgiveness as pathways to inclusion.

[00:30:00 — The Rubber Band Rule]
Julie explains her Rubber Band Rule: we all stretch for others, but when we over-stretch, we snap. Respect, she says, is relative, contextual, and dynamic—it shifts with relationships, workplaces, and personal growth.

[00:35:00 — Learning from Difference]
Simma shares stories from her life and work about learning from cross-cultural friendships and experiences in holistic health. Both reflect on how curiosity helped them challenge stereotypes and assumptions.

[00:40:00 — Evolving Through Curiosity]
They discuss how curiosity helps us evolve—our identities, habits, and relationships are always changing. Julie highlights that curiosity is lifelong learning, not a one-time skill.

[00:45:00 — From Outrage to Understanding]
Julie and Simma emphasize moving beyond outrage to curiosity. They share stories about being misjudged and how asking questions transforms conflict into connection.

[00:48:00 — Closing Reflections: Self-Respect and Connection]
Julie closes with her final message: respect isn't fixed; it changes with context. Simma thanks her for the powerful conversation, reiterates the importance of curiosity, and invites listeners to stay engaged.

 

Guest Bio

Dr. Julie Pham is the founder of CuriosityBased, a leadership development organization that helps people build trust and collaboration through curiosity. She is the author of Seven Forms of Respect and a TEDx speaker whose work challenges how we define and show respect in our daily lives. Find her at CuriosityBased.com or on LinkedIn (@JuliePhamPhD).

 

Click here to DONATE and support our podcast

All donations are tax deductible through Fractured Atlas.

Simma Lieberman, The Inclusionist, helps leaders create inclusive cultures. She is a consultant, speaker, and facilitator. Simma is the creator and host of the podcast, Everyday Conversations on Race.

Contact Simma@SimmaLieberman.com to get more information, book her as a speaker for your next event, help you become a more inclusive leader, or facilitate dialogues across differences.

Go to www.simmalieberman.com and www.raceconvo.com for more information

Simma is a member of and inspired by the global organization IAC (Inclusion Allies Coalition) 

 

Connect with me:

Instagram
Facebook
YouTube
Twitter
LinkedIn
Tiktok
Website

  

Previous Episodes

Voices of Triumph: Stories of African Women Immigrants in America Black Health Matters: Community, Data, and the Journey to Wellness with Kwame Terra What Might Be: Friendship, Race, and Transforming Power Loved this episode?  Leave us a review and rating

Join Simma, the Inclusionist, as she hosts an illuminating conversation with Dr. Nneka and Dr. Angela, two Nigerian-born, U.S.-based doctors and authors. They discuss their empowering book, 'Voices of Triumph: Stories of African Women Immigrants in America,' which chronicles challenges and triumphs faced by African women immigrants. Delve into personal anecdotes of overcoming adversity, the significance of community, cultural impact, and the importance of recognizing self-worth. This episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in bridging cultural divides and celebrating resilience.

 

00:00 Introduction and Podcast Overview

01:09 Meet the Guests: Nigerian Doctors and Authors

02:08 The Journey of Writing 'Voices of Triumph'

03:10 Challenges and Triumphs of Immigrant Women

07:03 Navigating Workplace Politics and Racism

20:41 Microaggressions and Imposter Syndrome

26:35 Embracing Identity and Overcoming Adversity

28:52 The Power of Community

32:03 Embracing Technology and Overcoming Fear

37:33 Cultural Impact and Responsibilities

47:05 Balancing Cultural Expectations and Self-Care

50:39 Empowerment and Resilience

53:17 Final Thoughts and Contact Information

 

Guest Bio:
Dr. Angela Ikeme holds a Doctor of Nursing Practice degree from the University of San Francisco in Executive Leadership, a Master's in Nursing Education Degree from Grand Canyon University, and a Bachelor of Nursing Science degree from the University of Phoenix. She is a Nurse Executive Board Certified. She holds a California Registered Nurse Licence, has spent over 30 years in clinical and administrative nursing, and is a professor at the University of San Francisco, California. She has spent most of her career advocating for high-quality education for nurses and ensuring that nurses provide evidence-based, high-quality, and safe patient care. She is a compassionate, passionate, transformational leader, an advocate for equity and social justice, a mentor, and an entrepreneur. Dr. Angela is an enthusiastic and authentic leader with a strong passion for respect for others. She is committed to building community through partnership and collaboration, hence her love and commitment to providing high-quality nursing education to students at Merit College of Nursing Sciences Orlu, Imo State, Nigeria, where she is a co-founder and the Executive Provost of the school.

Dr. Nneka Chukwu holds a Doctoral Degree in Nursing with an emphasis in Healthcare Systems Leadership, a Master's degree in Business Administration, a certification as an Advanced Nurse Executive, and a certification as a Legal Nurse Consultant. She has over 20 years of experience in the healthcare industry, including Maternal Child Health, Critical Care, Leadership, Academia, and Quality/Risk Management. Dr. Nneka is currently the Director of Women and Children's Services and an Adjunct Faculty in the University of San Francisco Graduate Nursing Program. She is a published author, a mentor, a motivational speaker at the local and international level, and a seasoned leader who is well-versed in developing programs, leading projects, and team building.

 

Click here to DONATE and support our podcast

All donations are tax deductible through Fractured Atlas.

Simma Lieberman, The Inclusionist, helps leaders create inclusive cultures. She is a consultant, speaker, and facilitator. Simma is the creator and host of the podcast, Everyday Conversations on Race.

Contact Simma@SimmaLieberman.com to get more information, book her as a speaker for your next event, help you become a more inclusive leader, or facilitate dialogues across differences.

Go to www.simmalieberman.com and www.raceconvo.com for more information

Simma is a member of and inspired by the global organization IAC (Inclusion Allies Coalition) 

 

Connect with me:

Instagram
Facebook
YouTube
Twitter
LinkedIn
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Previous Episodes

Black Health Matters: Community, Data, and the Journey to Wellness with Kwame Terra What Might Be: Friendship, Race, and Transforming Power Global DEI: Apartheid to Equity Loved this episode?  Leave us a review and rating

How do we close the health gap in Black communities? In this episode, Simma Lieberman ("The Inclusionist") talks with bEHR Health founder Kwame Terra about the urgent need for health equity, the power of community, and the real stories behind the statistics. From breaking world records to building a movement, this conversation will challenge, inspire, and empower you.

Timestamps & Key Segments:
00:00 – Introduction: Why Black Health Matters
02:15 – Meet Kwame Terra: From Runner to Health Equity Leader
07:30 – The Shocking Truth About Health Disparities
15:00 – bEHR Health: Using Data and Community to Drive Change
22:45 – Real Stories: Walking Clubs, World Records, and Transformation
31:10 – Food, Motivation, and Changing Habits
38:00 – The Power of Community Support
45:20 – How You Can Get Involved and Make a Difference
50:00 – Closing Thoughts: Hope, Action, and the Future of Black Health

Why Listen?

●     Learn what's really behind the life expectancy gap—and what you can do about it.

●     Hear how bEHR Health is helping people walk off medication and reclaim their lives.

●     Get practical tips for building healthy habits and finding support.

●     Be part of a movement that's changing the narrative on Black health.

Guest Bio:
Kwame Terra is the founder and CEO of bEHR Health, a platform dedicated to closing the health gap in Black communities through technology, education, and collective action. A former collegiate runner and passionate advocate for health equity, Kwame is on a mission to help everyone live longer, healthier lives.

 

Click here to DONATE and support our podcast

All donations are tax deductible through Fractured Atlas.

Simma Lieberman, The Inclusionist, helps leaders create inclusive cultures. She is a consultant, speaker, and facilitator. Simma is the creator and host of the podcast, Everyday Conversations on Race.

Contact Simma@SimmaLieberman.com to get more information, book her as a speaker for your next event, help you become a more inclusive leader, or facilitate dialogues across differences.

Go to www.simmalieberman.com and www.raceconvo.com for more information

Simma is a member of and inspired by the global organization IAC (Inclusion Allies Coalition) 

 

Connect with me:

Instagram
Facebook
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Previous Episodes

Global DEI: Apartheid to Equity Navigating Race, Mental Health and Well-being in Corporate America How Racist Competency Checks Prevent Merit-Based Hiring Loved this episode?  Leave us a review and rating

How Two Legal Changemakers Are Redefining Leadership, Collaboration, and Racial Justice in a Divided World

In this episode of Everyday Conversations on Race, Simma Lieberman is joined by Professor Susan Sturm of Columbia Law School, and community change agent Richard Gray of the Center for Collaborative Education. These longtime collaborators talk candidly about their friendship across race, the evolution of their leadership work, and how confronting racism means more than just talking about it.

They explore how white people can genuinely show up in racial justice work, the difference between performative allyship and real connection, and the need for inclusive institutional change—especially when that change is under attack. Together, they break down the core themes from Susan's book What Might Be: Confronting Racism to Transform Our Institutions.

You'll hear stories of personal transformation, resistance against performative politics, and lessons in building multiracial and multigenerational coalitions. Whether you're an advocate, educator, or someone struggling with how to take meaningful action, this conversation is for you.

Timestamps:
1:10 – Why these conversations matter now more than ever
3:45 – Meet Professor Susan Sturm and Richard Gray
8:10 – How Susan and Richard met and started collaborating
14:30 – Real friendship across race: beyond credentials
20:10 – Susan on being a white person who "meant well" but needed to unlearn
26:45 – Richard on redefining what it means to be a lawyer for social justice
33:00 – "Hanging out while white" — how not to be awkward or performative
36:20 – What What Might Be really means, and how to act in paradox
43:00 – Institutions, white comfort, and what transformation should look like
52:00 – Micro-spaces of justice: how change happens when the law falls short
59:40 – What each of us can do now (no matter who we are)

Guest Information:

Susan Sturm is the George M. Jaffin Professor of Law & Social Responsibility at Columbia Law School and the Founding Director of the Center for Institutional and Social Change.

Her new book, What Might Be: Confronting Racism to Transform Our Institutions, explores the paradoxes built into anti-racism work and how to turn them into drivers of learning and change. It provides strategies for staying engaged in this work amidst the challenging conditions we now face.

Richard Gray serves as director of AISR's Community Organizing & Engagement team. His work includes providing strategic support on community organizing and engagement to community and school reform organizations in cities across the country.

He also directs AISR's Center for Education Organizing, which helps expand the power of education organizing through building strategic alliances among organizations and with strategic partners such as teachers' unions, reform support organizations, civil rights organizations, and research and policy institutes. 

 

 Click here to DONATE and support our podcast

All donations are tax deductible through Fractured Atlas.

Simma Lieberman, The Inclusionist, helps leaders create inclusive cultures. She is a consultant, speaker, and facilitator. Simma is the creator and host of the podcast, Everyday Conversations on Race.

Contact Simma@SimmaLieberman.com to get more information, book her as a speaker for your next event, help you become a more inclusive leader, or facilitate dialogues across differences.

Go to www.simmalieberman.com and www.raceconvo.com for more information

Simma is a member of and inspired by the global organization IAC (Inclusion Allies Coalition) 

 

Connect with me:

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Previous Episodes

Global DEI: Apartheid to Equity Navigating Race, Mental Health and Well-being in Corporate America How Racist Competency Checks Prevent Merit-Based Hiring Loved this episode?  Leave us a review and rating

In this episode of Everyday Conversations on Race, Simma Lieberman, The Inclusionist, is joined by two incredible global Diversity, Equity and Inclusion experts: Michaël Stuber, the European DEI Engineer, and Nene Molefi, founder of Mandate Molefi HR Consultants in South Africa. While the focus of this episode is on the global Diversity, Equity and Inclusion landscape, it's also a deeply personal conversation about their journeys, the challenges they've faced, and how their backgrounds have shaped their approach to diversity, equity, and inclusion.

As we explore how Diversity, Equity and Inclusion initiatives differ across countries, Michaël and Nene share their unique personal experiences—from Michaël's upbringing in a family where cultural diversity was the norm, to Nene's harrowing memories of growing up in the midst of apartheid in South Africa. These personal stories are woven into the conversation, bringing a human element to the Diversity, Equity and Inclusion discussion that goes beyond theories and strategies.

Detailed Time Stamps:

• [00:00] Introduction to Simma and the guests
• [04:30] Michael Stuber shares how his diverse upbringing shaped his perspective on DEI
• [07:00] Nene talks about growing up during apartheid in South Africa and the 1976 uprisings
• [12:00] The impact of apartheid on Nene's personal and professional journey
• [16:00] Michaël's early experiences with Diversity, Equity and Inclusion work and the importance of a European context
• [21:45] The role of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission in shaping Michaël's understanding of DEI
• [26:30] Nene discusses her experience in developing South Africa's Employment Equity Act and its legacy
• [32:15] Challenges and growth in Diversity, Equity and Inclusion work across South Africa and Europe
• [37:00] Michaël reflects on the global DEI landscape and adapting U.S.-based DEI concepts for Europe
• [42:00] The importance of systemic change in Diversity, Equity and Inclusion: addressing structures, not just attitudes
• [47:15] Current challenges in DEI: nationalistic movements and the regression of progress
• [52:30] The personal impact of the global political climate on DEI work
• [57:00] Nene and Michaël discuss the shifting attitudes towards Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion, and the need for integrity and truth-telling
• [01:02:30] Closing remarks: The importance of global perspectives in DEI and continuing the conversation

This isn't just about Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion; it's about understanding the deep-rooted histories that influence how we work, relate, and view one another today. Michaël and Nene's personal stories and shared wisdom will help you see Diversity, Equity and Inclusion not just as a corporate or political issue, but a human one.

Key Takeaways:

1. Diversity, Equity and Inclusion is about more than just policies—it's about understanding personal and cultural histories that shape our worldviews.
2. Real change in DEI requires confronting deep-rooted systems of oppression, as demonstrated by Nene's experience in apartheid and Michaël's work in Europe.
3. Effective DEI strategies must be rooted in listening, respect, and understanding of the complex histories that shape people's lives.

Guest Information:

Michael Stuber is The European D&I Engineer – a brand based on his evidence-based yet activist-driven and strategically organized approach DEI. In the late 1990s, he initiated the first EMEA-based DE&I research to build a European perspective. As an advisor to US multinationals, he helped adapt American D&I strategies to EMEA realities. His Propelling Performance Principle makes inclusiveness a consistent business contribution, while his models of unconscious biases or inclusive leadership create traction across industries.

Stuber has since worked on four continents, authored five books, and hosts one of the world's largest D&I KnowledgeBlogs, the diversitymine.eu, with some 2,000 articles. He co-created Germany's first National anti-racism program, helped locate survivors for the HVAP, and supported major US firms in redesigning Racial Equity or Management Training for EMEA. His approach bridges research, strategy and transformation to embed DE&I in business, leadership and culture.

Nene Molefi is a globally recognized consultant, keynote speaker, coach and author with over 25 years of experience shaping leadership, organizational transformation, and diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) across industries. Born and raised in Soweto, Johannesburg, she has built an esteemed career advocating for values-driven leadership, high-performing teams, and systemic change in organizations worldwide.

As the Founder and CEO of Mandate Molefi HR Consultants, Nene has advised multinational corporations, governments, and nonprofit organizations. Her expertise spans Whole System Culture Change, Executive Leadership Development, DEI Strategy and High-Stakes Facilitation—guiding courageous, results-driven conversations that tackle complex organizational and societal challenges. She has led and steered intricate, long-term cultural transformation and leadership initiatives, working with multi-disciplinary and specialist teams.

 

 

 Click here to DONATE and support our podcast

All donations are tax deductible through Fractured Atlas.

Simma Lieberman, The Inclusionist, helps leaders create inclusive cultures. She is a consultant, speaker, and facilitator. Simma is the creator and host of the podcast, Everyday Conversations on Race.

Contact Simma@SimmaLieberman.com to get more information, book her as a speaker for your next event, help you become a more inclusive leader, or facilitate dialogues across differences.

Go to www.simmalieberman.com and www.raceconvo.com for more information

Simma is a member of and inspired by the global organization IAC (Inclusion Allies Coalition) 

 

Connect with me:

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Previous Episodes

Navigating Race, Mental Health and Well-being in Corporate America How Racist Competency Checks Prevent Merit-Based Hiring Can Descendants of the Enslaved Reconcile with the Enslavers?   Loved this episode?  Leave us a review and rating

How can Black professionals address the mental, physical and emotional toll of success in corporate America? Join Simma Lieberman, the Inclusionist, in this insightful episode of Everyday Conversations on Race with guests Shaniqua McClendon and Justin Grant. Shaniqua, VP of Politics at Crooked Media, and Justin, an executive at JP Morgan Chase, share their personal stories and experiences about the significance of discussing race in society and corporate environments. They also delve into the intricacies of mental, physical and emotional health, especially for Black individuals in corporate America. Listen in to hear their personal stories and how they had to learn and practice self-care strategies for their mental, physical and emotional health.

 

How can developing and being part of a supportive community help maintain healthy blood pressure, prevent heart attacks and build a strong immune system?

 

How does meditation, deep breathing, walking and other exercise reduce stress, and anxiety and support success?

 

Discover practical advice, inspirational stories, and engaging discussions that highlight the importance of community, self-care, and systemic change.

 

The techniques, practices and actions they share as Black people in corporate America should be used by anyone who cares about their own mental, physical and emotional well-being in our society today.

 

 Don't miss this thought-provoking conversation and learn how to navigate these critical issues effectively.

  

Get 45% off the Magic Mind bundle or 20% off a one-time purchase with Simma's exclusive link: magicmind.com/SimmaL20 

(Support mental health services for the homeless and low-income communities.) 

 

00:00 Introduction and Podcast Overview

00:41 Meet the Guests: Shaniqua McClendon and Justin Grant

02:15 The Importance of Discussing Race

02:33 Historical Context and Systemic Issues

07:36 Personal Stories: Shaniqua McClendon

11:45 Personal Stories: Justin Grant

15:48 Mental Health and Corporate America

29:15 The Importance of Mental Health Support

30:55 Stigma Around Therapy in the Black Community

32:43 Ethno Therapy and Cultural Considerations

35:15 Navigating Corporate America as a Black Professional

41:42 Strategies for Self-Care and Community Building

52:22 Final Thoughts and Parting Advice

 

Guests Bio:

Justin Grant is an accomplished writer, marketer, community development and corporate communications leader with more than a decade of experience leading high-profile campaigns in the asset management and financial services industries. He serves as a mentor to numerous students and young professionals of varying backgrounds, both in the United States and Brazil, and sits on the Board of Trustees at Long Island University, where he has taught journalism. Grant is the author of the new book, "Company Men: A Wellness Guide for Black Men in Corporate America" (Wordeee, Feb. 12, 2025).

Links for Justin --

Website 
LinkedIn 
Goodreads 
Amazon 
Bookshop 

Shaniqua McClendon is the Vice President of Politics for Crooked Media (home to the popular podcast, Pod Save America), a political strategist and sought-after speaker and commentator on media, politics, voting, and race. At Crooked Media, she leads their political strategy and civic engagement program (Vote Save America), and also created their successful 2020 volunteer engagement and fundraising program

 

Links for Shaniqua -- Website  Twitter  Instagram  LinkedIn   

 Click here to DONATE and support our podcast

All donations are tax deductible through Fractured Atlas.

Simma Lieberman, The Inclusionist, helps leaders create inclusive cultures. She is a consultant, speaker, and facilitator. Simma is the creator and host of the podcast, Everyday Conversations on Race.

Contact Simma@SimmaLieberman.com to get more information, book her as a speaker for your next event, help you become a more inclusive leader, or facilitate dialogues across differences.

Go to www.simmalieberman.com and www.raceconvo.com for more information

Simma is a member of and inspired by the global organization IAC (Inclusion Allies Coalition) 

 

Connect with me:

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Previous Episodes

How Racist Competency Checks Prevent Merit-Based Hiring Can Descendants of the Enslaved Reconcile with the Enslavers? Can Individuals Really End Racism? Loved this episode?  Leave us a review and rating

Have you ever felt challenged or questioned because of your race? In this episode of Everyday Conversations on Race, Simma Lieberman welcomes Shari Dunn, author of Qualified: How Competency Checking and Race Collide at Work.

 

 Explore how race affects perceptions of competence and the real-world impacts of systemic racism in the workplace. You'll understand how racist competency checks can impede merit-based hiring. With personal anecdotes and historical insights, Shari Dunn sheds light on how people of color, especially Black women, face unfair scrutiny and bias in their professional lives. Discover why it's crucial to talk about race, debunk myths of a colorblind society, and take actionable steps toward creating inclusive work cultures. Tune in for a heartfelt and informative cross-race discussion and hear what we can do to unite and bring people together across differences.  Learn more about this important topic and share this episode to help grow the conversation.

 

00:00 Introduction to the Podcast

00:53 Meet Shari Dunn: Author of 'Qualified'

02:05 Shari Dunn's Varied Career Background

03:19 The Concept of Competency Checking

03:58 The Importance of Discussing Race

04:26 Historical Context and Colorblindness

06:51 Merit-Based Society: Fact or Fiction?

08:39 Personal Experiences and Systemic Barriers

19:40 The Toll of Racism on Health

22:20 Examples of Competency Checking

29:03 The Cost of White Supremacy

30:29 The Exercise: Labels and Leadership

32:13 The Great Man Theory of Leadership

33:56 Imposter Syndrome and Workplace Dynamics

35:13 The Danger of Misplaced Leadership

38:13 White Supremacy's Impact on White People

39:52 Stories of Competency Checking

47:31 The Concept of Whiteness and Blackness

50:51 Actions to Combat Competency Checking

54:14 Conclusion and Contact Information

 

Get 45% off the Magic Mind bundle or 20% off a one-time purchase with Simma's exclusive link: magicmind.com/SimmaL20 

(Support mental health services for the homeless and low-income communities.) 

 

Guests Bio:

Shari Dunn is a polymath, an accomplished journalist, and a former attorney, news anchor, CEO, and university professor. 

She is an American Leadership Forum Fellow and has been awarded the prestigious Executive of the Year Award in 2018, the 2019 Women of Influence Award (Portland Business Journal), the Associated Press Award for Best Spot News, and the Wisconsin Broadcasting Association Award for Best Morning News Show. Her work has been cited in the Wall Street Journal and quoted in TIME and Fast Company among others. Shari is also a sought-after speaker. She holds a BA in philosophy from Marquette University and a JD from Northwestern Pritzker School of Law.

 

 Click here to DONATE and support our podcast

All donations are tax deductible through Fractured Atlas.

Simma Lieberman, The Inclusionist, helps leaders create inclusive cultures. She is a consultant, speaker, and facilitator. Simma is the creator and host of the podcast, Everyday Conversations on Race.

Contact Simma@SimmaLieberman.com to get more information, book her as a speaker for your next event, help you become a more inclusive leader, or facilitate dialogues across differences.

Go to www.simmalieberman.com and www.raceconvo.com for more information

Simma is a member of and inspired by the global organization IAC (Inclusion Allies Coalition) 

 

Connect with me:

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Previous Episodes

Can Descendants of the Enslaved Reconcile with the Enslavers? Can Individuals Really End Racism? How Can Art Eliminate Racism? Loved this episode?  Leave us a review and rating

Magic Mind Bundle: Get 45% off the Magic Mind bundle with Simma's exclusive link: https://magicmind.com/SimmaLJAN (Support mental health services for the homeless and low-income communities)

 

Are you ready to explore the challenging topics of race and reconciliation? In this episode of 'Everyday Conversations on Race,' hosted by Simma Lieberman, we dive deep into the initiatives of the Descendants Truth and Reconciliation Foundation. Guests Monique Trusclair Maddox and Fr. Tim Kesicki, SJ, share their compelling stories and the foundation's mission to address the historical injustices of Jesuit-owned enslavement at Georgetown University. Discover how the foundation's work—ranging from educational scholarships to elder care and racial healing programs—aims to reduce racial tensions and promote a more just and equitable future. Tune in for an enlightening conversation on historical accountability and the ongoing journey towards racial equity.

 

01:00 Introducing Today's Guests 03:13 Monique's Story: Discovering Her Ancestry 07:04 Father Tim's Perspective and Historical Context 18:11 Addressing Racial Tensions and Self-Care 20:36 The Work of the Descendants Truth and Reconciliation Foundation 28:43 The Importance of Truth and Reconciliation 29:01 Building Relationships and Generational Knowledge 29:29 The Foundation's Pillars and Initiatives 31:31 Historical Context of the 1838 Sale 33:42 Addressing Specific Needs and Equity 35:26 Truth, Racial Healing, and Transformation 38:14 Personal Reflections and Proximity 45:18 The Role of the Church in Addressing Racism 46:44 Formation of the Descendants Association 52:15 Conclusion and Further Resources

Guests Bio:

Father Timothy P. Kesicki, S.J., is the President of the Jesuit Conference of Canada and the United States. Headquartered in Washington, D.C., the Jesuit Conference promotes common goals and oversees international projects for the Society of Jesus. As Conference President, Fr. Kesicki works with the Jesuit Provincials of the United States and Canada in implementing programs, represents the Conference internationally and serves as the religious superior of the Boston College School of Theology and Ministry and the Jesuit School of Theology of Santa Clara University in Berkeley, California. He serves on the boards of Jesuit Refugee Service/USA and America Magazine.

 

Monique Trusclair Maddox is the CEO of the Descendants Truth & Reconciliation Foundation as well as chair of the board of directors. She is a fifth- and sixth-generation granddaughter of Isaac Hawkins and a fourth-generation granddaughter of Nace Butler, two of the 272 men, women, and children who were enslaved by the Maryland Jesuits and eventually sold in 1838 in an effort to save Georgetown University from financial ruin.

 

Click here to DONATE and support our podcast

All donations are tax deductible through Fractured Atlas.

Simma Lieberman, The Inclusionist helps leaders create inclusive cultures. She is a consultant, speaker, and facilitator. Simma is the creator and host of the podcast, "Everyday Conversations on Race."

Contact Simma@SimmaLieberman.com to get more information, book her as a speaker for your next event, help you become a more inclusive leader, or facilitate dialogues across differences.

Go to www.simmalieberman.com and www.raceconvo.com for more information

Simma is a member of and inspired by the global organization IAC (Inclusion Allies Coalition) 

 

Connect with me:

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Previous Episodes

Can Individuals Really End Racism? How Can Art Eliminate Racism? Growing Up Biracial in a White World: Desiree Chang's Journey of Identity and Race Loved this episode?  Leave us a review and rating

Summary:
In this episode of Everyday Conversations on Race, Simma Lieberman is joined by Dr. Joe-Joe McManus and Juan Lopez, two individuals who share their experiences and insights into anti-racism and building true, meaningful interracial relationships. The conversation focuses on the importance of talking about race, the difference between being "non-racist" and "anti-racist," and how everyone can take small actions to fight racism. The episode highlights the need for intentional relationships across cultures and races, the significance of sharing personal stories, and the long-term process of working together to advance freedom and dismantle racism.
What can you do today to actively challenge racism in your own life? Keep listening to discover how small, intentional actions can make a difference.

Show Notes:
[00:00] Introduction Simma introduces her guests, Dr. Jojo McManus, an anti-racist educator and diversity and inclusion practitioner, and Juan Lopez, a consultant focused on leadership, organizational development, and DEI (Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion). The trio shares their personal connections and the powerful community they're part of, which focuses on building interracial, multicultural, and interfaith communities.

[04:30] Why It's Important to Talk About Race Simma asks Jojo and Juan if it's still important to talk about race in a world that sometimes claims we are "post-racial." Jojo and Juan explain how racism is alive and resurging and why ongoing conversations about race and racism are crucial.

[08:15] The Founding of Diversity 2000 (D2K) Juan shares how he co-founded the Diversity 2000 (D2K) community in 1993, a group designed to bring diversity professionals together to collaborate rather than compete. This community has grown into a 32-year-long initiative supporting DEI professionals globally.

[14:00] The Importance of Real Interactions The discussion turns to the value of truly interacting with people who are different from us, not just having "diverse friends." Jojo and Simma emphasize that building anti-racist habits involves more than just proximity—it requires intentional relationships and actions.

[20:30] Jojo's Book: A Brother's Insight Jojo discusses his book, A Brother's Insight: Guidance on Defeating Racism and Advancing Freedom. He shares how the book was inspired by the death of his brother and the powerful lessons he's learned about racism, systemic oppression, and the importance of being actively anti-racist.

[26:00] Small Actions Against Racism Jojo and Juan discuss small, intentional actions that can make a difference in fighting racism—like inviting someone different to join your group or calling out racism when you see it. Simma highlights how these actions can become part of your daily life when anti-racism is treated as a core value.

[31:00] The Complexity of Racism and Mental Health The conversation touches on how racism impacts mental health, including how internalized racism can affect communities. Jojo talks about how his brother's death, which was influenced by racism, deeply shaped his work in anti-racism.

[36:00] The Importance of Self-Care in the Fight Against Racism Simma and her guests discuss the importance of self-care to prevent burnout, especially when doing the long, hard work of anti-racism. Simma shares how she uses Magic Mind, an elixir designed to reduce stress, improve cognition, and support mental health.

[39:00] Taking Action and Creating Change Jojo emphasizes that everyone's voice has the power to make a difference in the fight against racism. Whether it's through lending your talent or raising your voice, each person can contribute to making the world more just.

[42:30] Closing Remarks and Call to Action The episode wraps up with Simma encouraging listeners to continue the conversation and engage in meaningful action against racism. She reminds everyone of the importance of real relationships and community in this ongoing journey.

Resources:
●    Magic Mind Bundle: Get 45% off the Magic Mind bundle with Simma's exclusive link: magicmind.com/SimmaLJAN (Support mental health services for the homeless and low-income communities).
●    Book: A Brother's Insight: Guidance on Defeating Racism and Advancing Freedom by Dr. Jojo McManus is available online and in local bookstores.
________________________________________
The episode provides actionable ways to learn from, interact with, and support people from different races, ethnicities, and cultures. Listeners are encouraged to move beyond passive support and take small, meaningful steps to stand against racism in their everyday lives.

 

Guests Bio:

Dr. Joe-Joe McManus serves as an Executive Advisor on antiracism and inclusive excellence.
He consults, writes, and speaks widely on topics at the intersections of antiracism, diversity and
inclusion, and leadership development. His new book, A Brother's Insight, offers guidance on
living an impactful antiracist life.

Over the past three decades, Dr. Joe-Joe's work has been largely behind the scenes, focused
on developing programs and policy, and advising leaders on promoting systemic change toward
inclusive excellence. McManus has held faculty, staff, and executive roles in higher education,
including Chief Diversity Officer. He has served at an HBCU, an international university, an Ivy
League institution, and at the university system level. He has also lectured, served on panels,
presented, and consulted across the U.S. and internationally for more than three decades.

 

Mr. Juan Lopez co-founded Amistad Associates in 1982 in Oakland, California, with Ms. Giselle Sanchez and a small group of human resource professionals who were working with non-profits, educational institutions and government.  In 1987, Mr. Lopez became the CEO of Amistad Associates.  In 1988, Amistad Associates relocated to Sebastopol, California.  

Juan was the primary consultant for Johnson and Johnson's Global Multicultural Leadership Program for eight years.  In this role he was responsible for designing organizational leadership competencies, using 360's for professional development, mentoring and developing career strategies for fast track advancement.  He worked closely with executive management to evaluate and track progress.  His program was recognized nationally and was benchmarked as a best in the field model. Mr. Lopez was a member of the Global Diversity and Inclusion Governance Council with PepsiCo for 5 years and his role was to focus on strategic insight on diversity management, organizational change, leadership development and innovation.

 

 Click here to DONATE and support our podcast

All donations are tax deductible through Fractured Atlas.

Simma Lieberman, The Inclusionist helps leaders create inclusive cultures. She is a consultant, speaker, and facilitator. Simma is the creator and host of the podcast, "Everyday Conversations on Race."

Contact Simma@SimmaLieberman.com to get more information, book her as a speaker for your next event, help you become a more inclusive leader, or facilitate dialogues across differences.

Go to www.simmalieberman.com and www.raceconvo.com for more information

Simma is a member of and inspired by the global organization IAC (Inclusion Allies Coalition) 

 

Connect with me:

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YouTube
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Previous Episodes

How Can Art Eliminate Racism? Growing Up Biracial in a White World: Desiree Chang's Journey of Identity and Race Will Music Transcend Racial Divides? Loved this episode?  Leave us a review and rating

 

In this exciting episode of Everyday Conversations on Race, host Simma Lieberman brings together Karen Waukazoo, a Rosebud Sioux tribe member and advocate for American Indians, and Jennifer Ngure, a Kenyan-born wellness coach, to discuss the profound ways culture connects and heals communities. Karen and Jennifer share their personal journeys of overcoming addiction, mental health challenges, and cultural shocks. They reveal surprising commonalities between Native American and Kenyan cultures, emphasizing the importance of community, traditional healing practices, and the role of cultural festivals. Tune in to learn how these two diverse backgrounds converge in their mission to foster resilience and well-being.

 

00:00 Introduction and Guest Introductions

01:37 Karen Waukazu's Journey and Cultural Advocacy

08:05 Jennifer Ngure's  Story and Wellness Advocacy

15:00 Cultural Healing and Community Importance

18:48 Challenges and Similarities in Cultural Practices

26:33 Youth Leadership and Cultural Revival

28:40 Connecting Cultures and Shared Experiences

31:02 Understanding the Mission District

32:12 Exploring Carnival and Its Origins

33:38 The Importance of Cultural Awareness

34:50 Personal Experiences with Cultural Differences

40:54 Challenges and Support in Immigrant Communities

44:46 Addressing Mental Health and Substance Abuse

47:42 The Issue of Missing Persons

51:54 Final Thoughts and Recommendations

 

Guests Bio:

Karen Waukazoo (Lakota) is the Interim Project Director of the CRDP Project at Friendship House. Influenced by her parents' dedication to the Native American Health Center and the Friendship House Association of American Indians programs and the local community, she chose to follow in their footsteps by serving the Bay Area's American Indian population in her own way. Knowledgeable of both sides of treatment and recovery, Karen has worked in many capacities at the Friendship House program – from a youth volunteer, to the Director of the Oakland Lodge Program, Intake Coordinator to her current position.  In her over 15 years of service, she has made it her goal to advocate for quality treatment services for American Indian men, women and children affected by substance abuse and alcoholism. Respect and compassion, as well as knowledge all remaining at the forefront. 

 

Jennifer is a seasoned wellness coach, registered nurse, and advocate for culturally informed self-care, with over 18 years of experience in the healthcare field. As the founder of Nimo Wellness LLC based in Boston, she dedicates her work to empowering middle-aged women in the African diaspora as they navigate pivotal life transitions. Born and raised in Kenya, Jennifer brings a unique blend of medical expertise and cultural heritage to her practice, helping women manage stress, build resilience, and reconnect with their true selves. Her signature programs, including the RenewHER Essence Wellness Retreat, dynamic workshops, and the forthcoming Mid-Life Transitions Coaching Program, are designed to create inclusive, nurturing spaces where women feel seen, heard, and supported. Jennifer's holistic, evidence-based approach celebrates the richness of cultural identity and community, promoting emotional, mental, and social well-being.  

 

 Click here to DONATE and support our podcast

All donations are tax deductible through Fractured Atlas.

Simma Lieberman, The Inclusionist helps leaders create inclusive cultures. She is a consultant, speaker, and facilitator. Simma is the creator and host of the podcast, "Everyday Conversations on Race."

Contact Simma@SimmaLieberman.com to get more information, book her as a speaker for your next event, help you become a more inclusive leader, or facilitate dialogues across differences.

Go to www.simmalieberman.com and www.raceconvo.com for more information

Simma is a member of and inspired by the global organization IAC (Inclusion Allies Coalition) 

 

Connect with me:

Instagram
Facebook
YouTube
Twitter
LinkedIn
Tiktok
Website

  

Previous Episodes

Breaking Bias with Anu Gupta How Can Art Eliminate Racism? Growing Up Biracial in a White World: Desiree Chang's Journey of Identity and Race Loved this episode?  Leave us a review and rating