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Once upon a time, members of the Code Switch team were just kids, learning about race and identity for the first time. So on this episode, we're sharing some of the books, movies and music that deeply influenced each of us at an early age — and set us on the path to being the race nerds we are today.

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Have you noticed people using terms like "unalive" and
"pew pews" on social media? There's a reason for that: some people are changing the way they speak on TikTok and other social media platforms to bypass what they think are algorithm blocks. For some users, it's a fun game — but for others, self-censoring certain words is crucial to being able to share their lived experience.

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This week on Code Switch, we're doing a different kind of immigration coverage. We're telling a New York story: one that celebrates the beautiful, everyday life of the immigrant. Code Switch producer, Xavier Lopez and NPR immigration reporter, Jasmine Garsd spend a day at Flushing Meadows Corona Park.

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Trans people are major targets of the second Trump administration. But in a way, that's nothing new; trans people have been fighting for their rights, dignity, and liberation for generations. So on this episode, we hear from trans elders about what their lives have looked like over the decades, and what messages they have for young people.

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We're throwing back to a conversation we had in 2020 with Jason Rezaian, Iranian American journalist who had been previously jailed in Iran. Back in January of 2020, the first Trump administration carried out a military operation killing Qassem Soleimani, an Iranian military commander. Now, the second Trump administration is striking Iranian nuclear sites. While lots has changed since 2020, much of our conversation with Jason is still eerily relevant.

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How Two Legal Changemakers Are Redefining Leadership, Collaboration, and Racial Justice in a Divided World

In this episode of Everyday Conversations on Race, Simma Lieberman is joined by Professor Susan Sturm of Columbia Law School, and community change agent Richard Gray of the Center for Collaborative Education. These longtime collaborators talk candidly about their friendship across race, the evolution of their leadership work, and how confronting racism means more than just talking about it.

They explore how white people can genuinely show up in racial justice work, the difference between performative allyship and real connection, and the need for inclusive institutional change—especially when that change is under attack. Together, they break down the core themes from Susan’s book What Might Be: Confronting Racism to Transform Our Institutions.

You’ll hear stories of personal transformation, resistance against performative politics, and lessons in building multiracial and multigenerational coalitions. Whether you're an advocate, educator, or someone struggling with how to take meaningful action, this conversation is for you.

Timestamps:
1:10 – Why these conversations matter now more than ever
3:45 – Meet Professor Susan Sturm and Richard Gray
8:10 – How Susan and Richard met and started collaborating
14:30 – Real friendship across race: beyond credentials
20:10 – Susan on being a white person who “meant well” but needed to unlearn
26:45 – Richard on redefining what it means to be a lawyer for social justice
33:00 – "Hanging out while white" — how not to be awkward or performative
36:20 – What What Might Be really means, and how to act in paradox
43:00 – Institutions, white comfort, and what transformation should look like
52:00 – Micro-spaces of justice: how change happens when the law falls short
59:40 – What each of us can do now (no matter who we are)

Guest Information:

Susan Sturm is the George M. Jaffin Professor of Law & Social Responsibility at Columbia Law School and the Founding Director of the Center for Institutional and Social Change.

Her new book, What Might Be: Confronting Racism to Transform Our Institutions, explores the paradoxes built into anti-racism work and how to turn them into drivers of learning and change. It provides strategies for staying engaged in this work amidst the challenging conditions we now face.

Richard Gray serves as director of AISR’s Community Organizing & Engagement team. His work includes providing strategic support on community organizing and engagement to community and school reform organizations in cities across the country.

He also directs AISR’s Center for Education Organizing, which helps expand the power of education organizing through building strategic alliances among organizations and with strategic partners such as teachers’ unions, reform support organizations, civil rights organizations, and research and policy institutes. 

 

 Click here to DONATE and support our podcast

All donations are tax deductible through Fractured Atlas.

Simma Lieberman, The Inclusionist, helps leaders create inclusive cultures. She is a consultant, speaker, and facilitator. Simma is the creator and host of the podcast, Everyday Conversations on Race.

Contact Simma@SimmaLieberman.com to get more information, book her as a speaker for your next event, help you become a more inclusive leader, or facilitate dialogues across differences.

Go to www.simmalieberman.com and www.raceconvo.com for more information

Simma is a member of and inspired by the global organization IAC (Inclusion Allies Coalition) 

 

Connect with me:

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Previous Episodes

Global DEI: Apartheid to Equity Navigating Race, Mental Health and Well-being in Corporate America How Racist Competency Checks Prevent Merit-Based Hiring Loved this episode?  Leave us a review and rating

In recent months we've seen the Trump administration punishing speech critical of Israel in its widening effort to combat what it sees as antisemitism. As protestors have been detained for pro-Palestinian activism, we've seen attacks on Jews and people expressing concern for Israeli hostages in Gaza — and in the wake of all this, a lot Jews don't agree on which actions constitutive antisemitism. On this episode, we're looking at the landscape of this disagreement, and talking to the legal scholar who came up with the definition of antisemitism that the White House is using, and who says he's worried that definition is being used in a way that could hurt Jews instead of protect them.

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Dr. Hasshan Batts talks with Miriam Cruz about how growing up in a difficult family environment inspired her to show her daughter extra love.

As President Trump flirts with invoking the Insurrection Act on anti-ICE demonstrators in LA, we look back at the national protests of 2020, when Trump last talked about invoking the act. Back then, there was broad energy around rethinking policing, but polls show that that energy has largely vanished. In this episode, we ask: what happened? Our guest points to what he calls copaganda – or pro-police propaganda.

A previous version of this episode incorrectly said that Alec Karakatsanis works at Equal Justice Under Law. He currently runs an organization called the Civil Rights Corps.

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How the false notion of "white genocide" traveled from the political fringes to the Oval Office. The week on Code Switch, we're talking to a reporter who was in the room during a meeting when President Trump pushed this conspiracy theory on the president of South Africa. And we're digging into what Trump's fixation on white South Africans tell us about anxieties over white replacement here in the U.S.

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The hunger for Mexican food in the U.S. is longstanding — from the conquistadors' love affair with chocolate, to the classic San Francisco burrito. This week, we're exploring the history of Mexican food in the United States, and asking what it takes for a cuisine to become quintessentially "American."

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In this episode of Everyday Conversations on Race, Simma Lieberman, The Inclusionist, is joined by two incredible global Diversity, Equity and Inclusion experts: Michaël Stuber, the European DEI Engineer, and Nene Molefi, founder of Mandate Molefi HR Consultants in South Africa. While the focus of this episode is on the global Diversity, Equity and Inclusion landscape, it’s also a deeply personal conversation about their journeys, the challenges they’ve faced, and how their backgrounds have shaped their approach to diversity, equity, and inclusion.

As we explore how Diversity, Equity and Inclusion initiatives differ across countries, Michaël and Nene share their unique personal experiences—from Michaël’s upbringing in a family where cultural diversity was the norm, to Nene’s harrowing memories of growing up in the midst of apartheid in South Africa. These personal stories are woven into the conversation, bringing a human element to the Diversity, Equity and Inclusion discussion that goes beyond theories and strategies.

Detailed Time Stamps:

• [00:00] Introduction to Simma and the guests
• [04:30] Michael Stuber shares how his diverse upbringing shaped his perspective on DEI
• [07:00] Nene talks about growing up during apartheid in South Africa and the 1976 uprisings
• [12:00] The impact of apartheid on Nene’s personal and professional journey
• [16:00] Michaël’s early experiences with Diversity, Equity and Inclusion work and the importance of a European context
• [21:45] The role of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission in shaping Michaël’s understanding of DEI
• [26:30] Nene discusses her experience in developing South Africa’s Employment Equity Act and its legacy
• [32:15] Challenges and growth in Diversity, Equity and Inclusion work across South Africa and Europe
• [37:00] Michaël reflects on the global DEI landscape and adapting U.S.-based DEI concepts for Europe
• [42:00] The importance of systemic change in Diversity, Equity and Inclusion: addressing structures, not just attitudes
• [47:15] Current challenges in DEI: nationalistic movements and the regression of progress
• [52:30] The personal impact of the global political climate on DEI work
• [57:00] Nene and Michaël discuss the shifting attitudes towards Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion, and the need for integrity and truth-telling
• [01:02:30] Closing remarks: The importance of global perspectives in DEI and continuing the conversation

This isn’t just about Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion; it’s about understanding the deep-rooted histories that influence how we work, relate, and view one another today. Michaël and Nene’s personal stories and shared wisdom will help you see Diversity, Equity and Inclusion not just as a corporate or political issue, but a human one.

Key Takeaways:

1. Diversity, Equity and Inclusion is about more than just policies—it’s about understanding personal and cultural histories that shape our worldviews.
2. Real change in DEI requires confronting deep-rooted systems of oppression, as demonstrated by Nene’s experience in apartheid and Michaël’s work in Europe.
3. Effective DEI strategies must be rooted in listening, respect, and understanding of the complex histories that shape people’s lives.

Guest Information:

Michaël Stuber – Described as “Germany’s diversity pioneer” (ManagerMagazin), Michael Stuber is known for his evidence-based, internationally experienced and critically reflective D&I approaches—beyond mainstream ‘good’ practice. Combining deep expertise with systemic thinking, he designs diversity strategies that are differentiated, holistic and therefore effective.

Nene Molefi is a globally recognized consultant, keynote speaker, coach and author with over 25 years of experience shaping leadership, organizational transformation, and diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) across industries. Born and raised in Soweto, Johannesburg, she has built an esteemed career advocating for values-driven leadership, high-performing teams, and systemic change in organizations worldwide.

As the Founder and CEO of Mandate Molefi HR Consultants, Nene has advised multinational corporations, governments, and nonprofit organizations. Her expertise spans Whole System Culture Change, Executive Leadership Development, DEI Strategy and High-Stakes Facilitation—guiding courageous, results-driven conversations that tackle complex organizational and societal challenges. She has led and steered intricate, long-term cultural transformation and leadership initiatives, working with multi-disciplinary and specialist teams.

 

 

 Click here to DONATE and support our podcast

All donations are tax deductible through Fractured Atlas.

Simma Lieberman, The Inclusionist, helps leaders create inclusive cultures. She is a consultant, speaker, and facilitator. Simma is the creator and host of the podcast, Everyday Conversations on Race.

Contact Simma@SimmaLieberman.com to get more information, book her as a speaker for your next event, help you become a more inclusive leader, or facilitate dialogues across differences.

Go to www.simmalieberman.com and www.raceconvo.com for more information

Simma is a member of and inspired by the global organization IAC (Inclusion Allies Coalition) 

 

Connect with me:

Instagram
Facebook
YouTube
Twitter
LinkedIn
Tiktok
Website

  

Previous Episodes

Navigating Race, Mental Health and Well-being in Corporate America How Racist Competency Checks Prevent Merit-Based Hiring Can Descendants of the Enslaved Reconcile with the Enslavers?   Loved this episode?  Leave us a review and rating

The fifth and final installment in our between-seasons miniseries, "a few of my favorite things," chosen by host John Biewen -- selections from outstanding podcast series. This project, led by host and senior producer Ruxandra Guidi and editor Rekha Murthy, is called Happy Forgetting. The episode we're sharing, "Finding the Wisdom," by producer Adreanna Rodriguez, explores themes of care, healing -- and history -- among Indigenous and Mexican women in California and Mexico. 

Find the rest of the Happy Forgetting series here: https://happyforgetting.com/

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We've probably said it a hundred times on Code Switch — biological race is not a real thing. So why is race still used to help diagnose certain conditions, like keloids or cystic fibrosis? On this episode, Dr. Andrea Deyrup breaks it down for us, and unpacks the problems she sees with practicing race-based medicine, from delayed diagnoses to ignoring environmental factors that lead to different health outcomes.

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Host John Biewen reads an essay from his newsletter, Keeping ScOR. Reflections on the Trump Administration's attempt to wrangle control of the national story and how it's told. Will this attack on factual history succeed?  

Music by goodnight, Lucas. 

To read see the Keeping ScOR newsletter archive or subscribe to receive it, go here: https://buttondown.com/KeepingScOR#subscribe-form

The video of David Joy referred to in the episode is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0g_6uidwcE

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Trump's win exposed political tensions between Arab-American voters — who were critical of Democratic support of Israel's war in Gaza, and Black voters — who remain the Democrats' most loyal supporters. That friction is especially pronounced in the majority Arab city of Dearborn, Michigan, and its majority Black neighbor, Detroit. This week, we go to a testy iftar dinner where Arab and Black folks sat down to begin having tough conversations.

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The fourth installment in our between-seasons miniseries, "a few of my favorite things," chosen by host John Biewen -- selections from exceptional podcast series. From CBC Podcasts and the L.A. Times, this is Season 1, Episode 5 of The Outlaw Ocean, reported by Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist Ian Urbina. The episode, titled "Waves of Extraction," uncovers brutal exploitation of sea life -- and of people. It's a powerful complement to Scene on Radio's Capitalism season. 

To listen to more Outlaw Ocean: https://link.mgln.ai/bW26Ku

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We're looking back on the day a Philadelphia police department helicopter dropped a bomb on a rowhouse in a middle-class neighborhood. Even though that bombing and the fire it set off killed eleven people and left hundreds homeless, it's been largely forgotten. So how did we collectively memory-hole an event this big? And what does that tell us about race and policing even today?

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Marsha P. Johnson was a trailblazer in the fight for gay rights. But Johnson's legacy extends beyond her activism: "Marsha was a really full person who lived a vibrant life. She was a muse and model for Andy Warhol," and a performer in New York City and London. In this episode, we talk to activist and author Tourmaline about what we can all learn from Johnson's legacy in times of adversity.

Tourmaline's two books about Marsha P. Johnson — Marsha: The Joy and Defiance of Marsha P. Johnson and One Day in June — are out on May 20, 2025.

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The third installment in our between-seasons miniseries, "a few of my favorite things," chosen by host John Biewen -- selections from exceptional podcast series. From producer Jess Shane and Radiotopia Presents, this is Episode 1 of "Shocking, Heartbreaking, Transformative," an innovative exploration of the process and the ethics of narrative documentary storytelling. 

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